I stumbled onto your website by accident — so glad I did. I’ve gorged on your writings and the useful information provided. However, I keep thinking that I’m going to spend the rest of my life alone because I’ve come to this awareness so late in my life. I’m 46 and am just beginning to get a clue. I spent the last 15 years of my life in an on again and off again relationship with a man who treated me exactly like my mother. I just wanted someone to love me. It has taken me this long to realize that the lack of love that I felt was the driving force behind a lot of my self-destructive behaviours. Although, there’s no one to really blame,and what’s done is done, I’m really pissed about this situation.
How do I get unstuck, before lose anymore of my precious life?
Well, you might be happy to learn that on average, the children of narcissistic parents come to full realization of their parent’s NPD in midlife, so you’re not at all behind, but right on time!
As for getting unstuck, I highly recommend a very well selected psychologist who specializes in personality disorders. It will jump start and bolster your progress like nothing else!
And as always, for daughters of narcissistic mothers, I recommend http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com . I help moderate the community forum there, and it’s a massive source of support and information for DONMs. Hop on and join us on the forum there — we’ve got thousands of members.
Hi Light,
I came upon your website looking for helpful advice dealing with a difficult clinical instructor (I am in nursing school). Your site has been very helpful but because my situation is a bit different from a personal or work relationship, I was wondering if you could offer any advice more specific to my situation.
In nursing school, as a student, I am basically at the mercy of the instructor so I must handle things in the best way possible. This instructor is condescending; for example, she said to me last week when I could only remember my patients’ first names, “We should try to remember last names because first names are very common” in a very snotty kind of way (best way I can explain her tone of voice). She has repeatedly told our clinical group of her accomplishments (like we did not hear them the first time), including that she ran a “high end” clothing store (emphasize the “high end”). She also has repeatedly told us of how difficult of a life she has had. In many instances, I do find it interesting and beneficial to know someone’s background and experiences but this goes beyond that. In addition, she is extremely rigid. When I am preparing medications, I must do it EXACTLY as she wants and she has no problem impatiently reminding me, or anyone else when we do not meet that expectation (or any other). Certainly, it is an instructor’s job to make sure that students are learning but as with other things she does, this goes beyond normal. You must consider that as a student I am practicing under her license and she must protect her license; however, I think her expectation that I prepare meds exactly her way goes beyond that as well. There is more than one way to safely pass medications without error just as there is more than one way of doing just about anything. She also gets impatient over the smallest things, and that happens very often.
Today, I had really had enough of her behavior. I showed my aggravation with her, mostly through non verbal communication and in my tone of voice. I did not completely lose my cool, but it was obvious I was not happy. I decided to myself that I would bring these issues to her attention at our post meeting at the end of the day. Then…while I was alone with her in the medication room (a locked, private room) she said, “I do not like the feedback I am getting and I WILL be addressing it during our post meeting.” I asked her exactly what kind of feedback she was referring to and she listed bad attitudes and number of other things I don’t recall at this moment. I countered that with the things I was saving for post-meeting. I told her basically what I have told you: she is condescending and rigid, she makes students nervous at the med cart, and she is unapproachable. She did not really listen or reflect on what I intended to be constructive criticism, but rather began to escalate by raising her voice and basically denying any wrongdoing on her part. I mistakenly got caught up in that, and raised my voice as well (this was not yelling, but more like an excited, raised voice) to try and get my point across…she then cut me off and said she would be bringing this up at our post meeting.
At post meeting, she had all of us sit down while she stood. Usually, she sits and some of us stand because there are not enough chairs in the room. She actually pulled her chair over and told a student to sit in it. I found that aggressive that she insisted on standing. She then proceeded on a rant of some of the things she said to me, and plus some with a raised voice the entire time. She emphasized that she had been a psych nurse so “she knows how to recognize certain coping mechanisms/behaviors” and that “she knows she cannot change those behaviors but only her reaction”…and I was thinking, is she seriously implying some of us have mental health issues? Honestly, from what I have witnessed of her behavior, it is quite the other way around! She talked about how hard nursing is, how hard she has worked, and basically implied how some of us won’t make it if we don’t listen to her. I spoke up, and so did one other student, in a respectful and calm way. I told her I did not mean to put her down, it was constructive criticism because her behavior is not helpful to us. She then commenced ranting and brought up how her life has been “a pile of – - – t that you could shovel”. I did not see how that was relevant…At the end of it all, she mentioned grading in a vague way and I am pretty certain that was more of a threat than it was informative.
I am in my fourth (which the last term) of nursing school. I have never had these issues with an instructor and neither has anyone else in my class. Her behavior is not typical of any other instructor I have had.
After reading the information on your site, I am a bit concerned about what happened today. I think she is narcissistic and if that is true, then I guess I am going to pay for challenging her. Someone advised me that when I go to clinical tomorrow to act as normal as possible and act like nothing happened…their rationale is that someone like her is expecting a reaction and when they don’t get one it throws them a curve ball and they don’t know how to react. I thought it was good advice but I could be wrong.
If you have any recommendations based on what I have told you, I would greatly appreciate it. Just an FYI…I probably would not get very much support for anyone higher up in the chain of command at school…it is kind of the culture of nursing school, or this one at least. I have been doing some thinking about how to present my position to the director if the need arises, but I really hope that it does not.
Sorry to hear about this. You’ve obviously got yourself a live one. This won’t be your first, either. Unfortunately, narcissists are very overrepresented in medicine, especially nursing and docs. There’s a lot of narcissistic supply available in those jobs.
If I were in your position, I’d concentrate my time, energy and resources on staying out of her line of fire. Since you’ve already shown her such resistance, you’re going to be made a target. It’s good you don’t have much farther to go in school, because it’s very hard to get a narcissist to un-target you once you’ve pushed their buttons.
Maybe with a little hard work to fade out of her sights a bit, she will concentrate on someone or something else. Not that that’s good for them, either, but she’s now got her knickers in a twist, and she’ll want as many people as possible to pay for her narcissistic injury. I imagine you’re number one right now, since you dealt her the blow. (Yeah, I know, you haven’t been unreasonable, but narcissists don’t see any kind of questioning or failure to submit to their control as anything less than a vicious smackdown against them, and they’re highly vindictive.)
You mention the higher-ups not being supportive. You never know. Here’s why: narcissists don’t have a ton of buddies at work. They usually make just as many enemies out of their coworkers as they do the people they’re serving/teaching. I can guarantee you there are some people at her job who have had it “up to here” with her crap (even though they can be mixed in with more neutral/nasty/clueless others.)
Here would be the order I’d handle this in, myself:
Go in tomorrow, and DO NOT ACT RATTLED OR EMOTIONAL. Just be calm, peaceful and non-resistant. She might decide her scary talk cowed you properly and lighten up on you. If that happens, just keep riding that non-resistant, unemotional wave until you’re done with school. If you have a choice, sit further away, but act neutrally calm and peacefully okay — you don’t want her thinking she’s petrified you, because that may make her worse — you only want her to think you’ve let off casually.
If you try the calm, peaceful non-resistance, but she’s just too fired up not to keep on treating you like crap (you may have to let her do that a LITTLE — that often placates them, and you want this!) and you do find yourself in a situation where you HAVE TO speak to someone, my best advice is:
Don’t do it alone, don’t deliver it to HER, and don’t do it verbally. Just-you-against-her isn’t likely to pan out well. Get others involved. And whatever you do, put it in writing. (For a million reasons. Two of the reasons are: it keeps your emotions from making it messier/harder, and you will have a record, which is extremely important — narcissists lie, lie, lie, and manipulate, manipulate, manipulate.) If you find yourself having to make a complaint, do not let her know it’s coming, or she will concoct a lie to make you all look like fools. A surprise group letter to a higher-up is ideal.
Avoid being alone with her at all cost. Alone = vulnerable. If you absolutely have to spend any time alone, then at those times, be friendly, obedient, calm and loosely placating with her. This will increase the likelihood she won’t use your isolation against you, to stick the screws to you and upset you during her golden opportunity, when there are no witnesses to back up your complaint of how cruel she was to you. They like to get those they’re angry at alone and provoke them viciously, then use the poor person’s emotional reaction against them. If you get the feeling she’s trying to pin you into a corner alone for this purpose, use any excuse to leave. It wouldn’t hurt to think of a couple possibilities in advance.
Calmly avoid, calmly avoid, calmly avoid…
And remember, you can’t change mental disorders. You can only change your choices around them. So avoid her crap rather than fight it too much. Narcissists are like spiders who have sticky webs. The more you struggle against the web, the worse you’ll get stuck in it. Pick your battles, especially, and keep the bar high for whether something is worth the grief. And if something absolutely has to be addressed, go through another channel, with the support of others, in written form.
If you’re going into medicine, I can highly recommend reading up on narcissists and workplace bullying, too. You’ll need the info on a fairly regular basis. I say that as someone with 2 narcissisticky siblings — a doc and a nurse. They fit right in.
Wishing you improvement with this situation. Let’s hope this intolerable woman drops you like yesterday’s meatloaf…
I just stumbled upon this site and it has been very helpful! I’ve read through a lot of the blog posts and the comments and it has been great to hear other people put into word the things I’ve experienced and felt with my own family of origin.
Do you know of any resources for people with indifferent parents? A lot of the resources I’ve seen relate to smothering or over-involved parents or siblings but my family situation is the opposite: if I don’t do all the work to sustain the relationship, there is none. So, in a way, it’s easy to go non-contact. I just stop calling or writing and I’ll never hear from them (my father and two brothers, mother is long-time deceased).
Over the past four or five years, I’ve done a lot of work unpacking the family dynamics, through therapy and ACOA groups and have had limited or no contact with any of them.
While I feel that I can see things a lot more clearly now, I am also filled with a lot more anger and hurt and it’s been hard to get my head around the fact that they really seem not to care, are not interested in a relationship and certainly do not want to hear about my feelings. So, question to you and anyone else out there: how to draw a line under things and move on?
That’s an interesting one. It may be helpful to get to the bottom of why they’re so disinterested in maintaining a relationship with you. (There are a few personality disorders that can cause such things, and in those cases, you would most often see the behaviors you’ve mentioned in how they treat others as well, not just you).
Having a close look over the descriptions of ALL the personality disorders to see if anything catches your eye could possibly help you shed some light on things for yourself. Schizoid PD and Avoidant PD create tremendous difficulties in connecting with people, and narcissistscan be cold and indifferent to a person who isn’t giving them enough of what they want.
Anyhow, this is all just a layperson’s musings, as usual. It sounds like you’re wanting to move on, regardless of their reasons. Have you considered just not calling and writing, and letting things play out that way?
Hello Light,
I stumbled onto your website by accident — so glad I did. I’ve gorged on your writings and the useful information provided. However, I keep thinking that I’m going to spend the rest of my life alone because I’ve come to this awareness so late in my life. I’m 46 and am just beginning to get a clue. I spent the last 15 years of my life in an on again and off again relationship with a man who treated me exactly like my mother. I just wanted someone to love me. It has taken me this long to realize that the lack of love that I felt was the driving force behind a lot of my self-destructive behaviours. Although, there’s no one to really blame,and what’s done is done, I’m really pissed about this situation.
How do I get unstuck, before lose anymore of my precious life?
Hi Tracie
Well, you might be happy to learn that on average, the children of narcissistic parents come to full realization of their parent’s NPD in midlife, so you’re not at all behind, but right on time!
As for getting unstuck, I highly recommend a very well selected psychologist who specializes in personality disorders. It will jump start and bolster your progress like nothing else!
And as always, for daughters of narcissistic mothers, I recommend http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com . I help moderate the community forum there, and it’s a massive source of support and information for DONMs. Hop on and join us on the forum there — we’ve got thousands of members.
There’s information about finding the right kind of therapist here: http://lightshouse.org/lights-blog/how-to-find-the-right-therapist
Don’t worry too much about what feels like lost time. It wasn’t lost at all. It takes that long to wake up, and once you do, things really take off!
Hi Light,
I came upon your website looking for helpful advice dealing with a difficult clinical instructor (I am in nursing school). Your site has been very helpful but because my situation is a bit different from a personal or work relationship, I was wondering if you could offer any advice more specific to my situation.
In nursing school, as a student, I am basically at the mercy of the instructor so I must handle things in the best way possible. This instructor is condescending; for example, she said to me last week when I could only remember my patients’ first names, “We should try to remember last names because first names are very common” in a very snotty kind of way (best way I can explain her tone of voice). She has repeatedly told our clinical group of her accomplishments (like we did not hear them the first time), including that she ran a “high end” clothing store (emphasize the “high end”). She also has repeatedly told us of how difficult of a life she has had. In many instances, I do find it interesting and beneficial to know someone’s background and experiences but this goes beyond that. In addition, she is extremely rigid. When I am preparing medications, I must do it EXACTLY as she wants and she has no problem impatiently reminding me, or anyone else when we do not meet that expectation (or any other). Certainly, it is an instructor’s job to make sure that students are learning but as with other things she does, this goes beyond normal. You must consider that as a student I am practicing under her license and she must protect her license; however, I think her expectation that I prepare meds exactly her way goes beyond that as well. There is more than one way to safely pass medications without error just as there is more than one way of doing just about anything. She also gets impatient over the smallest things, and that happens very often.
Today, I had really had enough of her behavior. I showed my aggravation with her, mostly through non verbal communication and in my tone of voice. I did not completely lose my cool, but it was obvious I was not happy. I decided to myself that I would bring these issues to her attention at our post meeting at the end of the day. Then…while I was alone with her in the medication room (a locked, private room) she said, “I do not like the feedback I am getting and I WILL be addressing it during our post meeting.” I asked her exactly what kind of feedback she was referring to and she listed bad attitudes and number of other things I don’t recall at this moment. I countered that with the things I was saving for post-meeting. I told her basically what I have told you: she is condescending and rigid, she makes students nervous at the med cart, and she is unapproachable. She did not really listen or reflect on what I intended to be constructive criticism, but rather began to escalate by raising her voice and basically denying any wrongdoing on her part. I mistakenly got caught up in that, and raised my voice as well (this was not yelling, but more like an excited, raised voice) to try and get my point across…she then cut me off and said she would be bringing this up at our post meeting.
At post meeting, she had all of us sit down while she stood. Usually, she sits and some of us stand because there are not enough chairs in the room. She actually pulled her chair over and told a student to sit in it. I found that aggressive that she insisted on standing. She then proceeded on a rant of some of the things she said to me, and plus some with a raised voice the entire time. She emphasized that she had been a psych nurse so “she knows how to recognize certain coping mechanisms/behaviors” and that “she knows she cannot change those behaviors but only her reaction”…and I was thinking, is she seriously implying some of us have mental health issues? Honestly, from what I have witnessed of her behavior, it is quite the other way around! She talked about how hard nursing is, how hard she has worked, and basically implied how some of us won’t make it if we don’t listen to her. I spoke up, and so did one other student, in a respectful and calm way. I told her I did not mean to put her down, it was constructive criticism because her behavior is not helpful to us. She then commenced ranting and brought up how her life has been “a pile of – - – t that you could shovel”. I did not see how that was relevant…At the end of it all, she mentioned grading in a vague way and I am pretty certain that was more of a threat than it was informative.
I am in my fourth (which the last term) of nursing school. I have never had these issues with an instructor and neither has anyone else in my class. Her behavior is not typical of any other instructor I have had.
After reading the information on your site, I am a bit concerned about what happened today. I think she is narcissistic and if that is true, then I guess I am going to pay for challenging her. Someone advised me that when I go to clinical tomorrow to act as normal as possible and act like nothing happened…their rationale is that someone like her is expecting a reaction and when they don’t get one it throws them a curve ball and they don’t know how to react. I thought it was good advice but I could be wrong.
If you have any recommendations based on what I have told you, I would greatly appreciate it. Just an FYI…I probably would not get very much support for anyone higher up in the chain of command at school…it is kind of the culture of nursing school, or this one at least. I have been doing some thinking about how to present my position to the director if the need arises, but I really hope that it does not.
Hi Kelly
Sorry to hear about this. You’ve obviously got yourself a live one. This won’t be your first, either. Unfortunately, narcissists are very overrepresented in medicine, especially nursing and docs. There’s a lot of narcissistic supply available in those jobs.
If I were in your position, I’d concentrate my time, energy and resources on staying out of her line of fire. Since you’ve already shown her such resistance, you’re going to be made a target. It’s good you don’t have much farther to go in school, because it’s very hard to get a narcissist to un-target you once you’ve pushed their buttons.
Maybe with a little hard work to fade out of her sights a bit, she will concentrate on someone or something else. Not that that’s good for them, either, but she’s now got her knickers in a twist, and she’ll want as many people as possible to pay for her narcissistic injury. I imagine you’re number one right now, since you dealt her the blow. (Yeah, I know, you haven’t been unreasonable, but narcissists don’t see any kind of questioning or failure to submit to their control as anything less than a vicious smackdown against them, and they’re highly vindictive.)
You mention the higher-ups not being supportive. You never know. Here’s why: narcissists don’t have a ton of buddies at work. They usually make just as many enemies out of their coworkers as they do the people they’re serving/teaching. I can guarantee you there are some people at her job who have had it “up to here” with her crap (even though they can be mixed in with more neutral/nasty/clueless others.)
Here would be the order I’d handle this in, myself:
Go in tomorrow, and DO NOT ACT RATTLED OR EMOTIONAL. Just be calm, peaceful and non-resistant. She might decide her scary talk cowed you properly and lighten up on you. If that happens, just keep riding that non-resistant, unemotional wave until you’re done with school. If you have a choice, sit further away, but act neutrally calm and peacefully okay — you don’t want her thinking she’s petrified you, because that may make her worse — you only want her to think you’ve let off casually.
If you try the calm, peaceful non-resistance, but she’s just too fired up not to keep on treating you like crap (you may have to let her do that a LITTLE — that often placates them, and you want this!) and you do find yourself in a situation where you HAVE TO speak to someone, my best advice is:
Don’t do it alone, don’t deliver it to HER, and don’t do it verbally. Just-you-against-her isn’t likely to pan out well. Get others involved. And whatever you do, put it in writing. (For a million reasons. Two of the reasons are: it keeps your emotions from making it messier/harder, and you will have a record, which is extremely important — narcissists lie, lie, lie, and manipulate, manipulate, manipulate.) If you find yourself having to make a complaint, do not let her know it’s coming, or she will concoct a lie to make you all look like fools. A surprise group letter to a higher-up is ideal.
Avoid being alone with her at all cost. Alone = vulnerable. If you absolutely have to spend any time alone, then at those times, be friendly, obedient, calm and loosely placating with her. This will increase the likelihood she won’t use your isolation against you, to stick the screws to you and upset you during her golden opportunity, when there are no witnesses to back up your complaint of how cruel she was to you. They like to get those they’re angry at alone and provoke them viciously, then use the poor person’s emotional reaction against them. If you get the feeling she’s trying to pin you into a corner alone for this purpose, use any excuse to leave. It wouldn’t hurt to think of a couple possibilities in advance.
Calmly avoid, calmly avoid, calmly avoid…
And remember, you can’t change mental disorders. You can only change your choices around them. So avoid her crap rather than fight it too much. Narcissists are like spiders who have sticky webs. The more you struggle against the web, the worse you’ll get stuck in it. Pick your battles, especially, and keep the bar high for whether something is worth the grief. And if something absolutely has to be addressed, go through another channel, with the support of others, in written form.
If you’re going into medicine, I can highly recommend reading up on narcissists and workplace bullying, too. You’ll need the info on a fairly regular basis. I say that as someone with 2 narcissisticky siblings — a doc and a nurse. They fit right in.
Wishing you improvement with this situation. Let’s hope this intolerable woman drops you like yesterday’s meatloaf…
Hi there.
I just stumbled upon this site and it has been very helpful! I’ve read through a lot of the blog posts and the comments and it has been great to hear other people put into word the things I’ve experienced and felt with my own family of origin.
Do you know of any resources for people with indifferent parents? A lot of the resources I’ve seen relate to smothering or over-involved parents or siblings but my family situation is the opposite: if I don’t do all the work to sustain the relationship, there is none. So, in a way, it’s easy to go non-contact. I just stop calling or writing and I’ll never hear from them (my father and two brothers, mother is long-time deceased).
Over the past four or five years, I’ve done a lot of work unpacking the family dynamics, through therapy and ACOA groups and have had limited or no contact with any of them.
While I feel that I can see things a lot more clearly now, I am also filled with a lot more anger and hurt and it’s been hard to get my head around the fact that they really seem not to care, are not interested in a relationship and certainly do not want to hear about my feelings. So, question to you and anyone else out there: how to draw a line under things and move on?
Thanks again for providing such a handy resource.
Hi Jus
That’s an interesting one. It may be helpful to get to the bottom of why they’re so disinterested in maintaining a relationship with you. (There are a few personality disorders that can cause such things, and in those cases, you would most often see the behaviors you’ve mentioned in how they treat others as well, not just you).
Having a close look over the descriptions of ALL the personality disorders to see if anything catches your eye could possibly help you shed some light on things for yourself. Schizoid PD and Avoidant PD create tremendous difficulties in connecting with people, and narcissists can be cold and indifferent to a person who isn’t giving them enough of what they want.
Anyhow, this is all just a layperson’s musings, as usual. It sounds like you’re wanting to move on, regardless of their reasons. Have you considered just not calling and writing, and letting things play out that way?